Word on the street is that students plan to protest outside of the Nokia store in Manhattan because of the company’s alleged evildoing in Iran. The protest is being led by Project Nur, which is a student-affiliated “initiative” of the American Islamic Congress. Good luck, bro.
Protesters will be chanting, “Repression we can’t condone; throw out your Nokia phone!” That seems a little shoe-horned, but who am I to rain on these kids’ parade?
An American University student said, “We want Nokia executives to know we will not be silent, and we want Iranian students to know we stand with them.”
What’s all this about? People seem to think that Nokia, in its Nokia Siemens partnership in Iran, has been supplying the government with technology that enables it to track and monitor simple, cellphone-owning citizens. The problem is that every cellphone network has such capabilities. Says BusinessWeek:
There’s one little problem. Such monitoring capability is required in wireless gear by virtually all governments and it is part of the GSM Assn. and European Telecommunications Standards Institute standards. In the U.S., the Communications Assistance to Law Enforcement Act of 1994 (CALEA) requires that all wireless carriers provide the technological means for law enforcement authorities to tap wireless accounts.
In other words, Iranians aren’t in a unique position.
So good luck with your little protest, guys, but unless CNN runs a story that says “NOKIA HATES IRANIAN BABIES!” I don’t know if it’ll be worth your time.
Are you saying that just because they have to provide that to every government, Nokia has no responsibility for how Iran puts its technology to use?
I say Nokia has a moral responsibility. Of course they do!! Look at Iran’s record!!
Also, no one is claiming Nokia supplied Iran with some “super” technology. The problem that begs to be asked is: why on earth is Nokia empowering and supporting Iran’s repressive government?
Mark –
I think it’s a stretch to single out Nokia as supporting Iran’s government. By your metric, every single provider of a product or service sold in Iran supports the service? Or perhaps you think it’s Nokia’s job to disable every feature that might be misused if it determines the moral fiber of the government to be lacking? Perhaps you think that Nokia ought to have control over it’s equipment such that if it looks like the government is turning to a dark place it can disable stuff.
In short, for all practical purposes, Nokia has no responsibility for how Iran puts its technology to use. Unlike cigarette manufacturers, manufacturers of weapons of mass destruction or music that uses auto-tuners, Nokia technology is not fundamentally bad in any way.
Thomas
p.s. I hate the Iranian government. They suck.
Please don’t be fooled by your media. Otherwise I will say: p.s. I hate American government. They suck.
Nokia along with other western corporation provided the Iranian government with the necessary technologies that led to an array of backlash for those opposing the state.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8112550.stm
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124562668777335653.html
It is very hard for me to take the side of corporations that provided tools used to seek out protesters and often these protesters have been beaten, jailed without charges or jailed under false charges, death threats and intimidation among many other things.
To say these companies should not be held accountable for choosing profits over peoples’ lives, in this case, is a horrible thing to think let alone post. While the corporation were not directly responsible they still played a vital role in allowing human rights violations etc. to transpire.
Arrrrgh.
Listen, Nokia, along with every other company like them has provided this functionality to governments for decades. In most (all?) Western countries, this functionality is required by law. It’s been this way for decades, and there’s all kinds of legitimate reasons to have it. If you really think that this functionality is inherently evil, then please boycott every carrier in the world because they have implemented this technology, and every telephone switch manufacturer because they produce it, and every western government because they have written it into the law. Oh yeah, boycott the United Nations for the ITUs work in this area, and Cisco for making the backbone routers, and CapGemini for installing it, and Olgivy for writing the marketing literature…. Singling out Nokia is non-sensical; it’s like boycotting Coke but not Pepsi for producing soda.
No one is asking you to take the side of corporations, but they are not the ones to blame. If you really think the ethical reasoning behind your argument is sound, please make the same arguments about every other supplier to bad governments: oil companies that make the gas for the tanks, agribusiness that makes the food that feeds them, shoe manufacturers that produce their combat boots, Hollywood for making the TV shows the Iranian president secretly watches on YouTube at night.
Christ, it’s like you guys have no idea about what Nokia does, and has done for years. By law (by law) they cannot sell their products without this functionality. It applies to everybody. The UN (by way of ITU) wrote the basic standard, and every country has their own version. Every country, the good and the bad. And worse, do you really want the manufacturers to guarantee that their products only get used for “good” reasons? How the heck are they supposed to do that? Do you expect them to give you a survey when you buy a cell phone, just in case you do something bad with it like make prank phone calls? Make phone calls to the wrong kind of church?
I don’t approve of what Iran has done. Who possibly could? I’m just saying that Ben Franklin was right : They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Nokia has the right to make their products, and you don’t have the right to tell them not to. Phones are not evil. People can do evil things with phones, but that’s not the phone’s fault. It’s the people’s fault.
OK – now somebody from not-the-US make some snarky comment about how brainwashed and stupid americans are. At least we’re smart enough to know how a telephone network works… because we basically invented it. (And, having spent most of my professional life working inside and outside of the US, I know that there’s seriously smart people everywhere – Iran included – so don’t go there either. )
Wow. Brain trust material there. Yeah, Nokia provided technology to both the state-run telco’s AND the protesters. I guess providing the equipment that allows individuals to record and transmit their protest doesn’t quite balance out providing the equipment that an evil state can use to filter content.
To say that companies providing equipment should be somehow held accountable for the acts of people using the equipment is moronic.
Please do not explain the way of the world according to you Thomas. I understand that governments have been benefiting from communications companies’ advancements. Some of the governments that have benefited were for the most part peaceful and the people that were spied upon and maybe even arrested did not face beatings or death but in harsh regimes like Iran the people that are spied upon are often times arrested for what wouldn’t add up to a single thing in a more transparent society.
If you had taken the time to read the articles i posted it clearly states that Iran had received this technology six months before the elections so do not start making your false statements that only reflect your opinions on the world and not actually how the world is, please get some supporting information for your stories.
Read my response to Thomas Howe below i posted some links that indicate that Western corporations including Nokia did in fact provide the Iranian government highly sophisticated technology that allowed the state to do more than just monitor communications transpiring in the country.
I meant to say “…sold in Iran supports the government”, not “…sold in Iran supports the service.” I’m going to go out and protest Apple because its supporting my bad grammar.
I knew there are a lot of idiots in the world, just didn’t realize the extent of the problem…
Nice “pkg”, of course your last comment pretty much outs you. Perhaps you were looking in the mirror when you typed that ‘lil piece of genius? Stupid. And for the record, I also dislike the current U.S. government…they really do suck.
Hey, it’s really dumb to blame Nokia in this particular case. But no surprise – you live in your world built by your media. You really believe that the Iranian government is evil. Same as you believed that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. Same as you believed that the Japanese all of a sudden had hit Pearl Harbor. Just get out of your matrix-like cradle and go travel around the world. You will learn a lot. I am not American but I lived in the US some time ago. I also lived in other countries, not counting the ones that I just visited. So, the world is much bigger than your reality.
As for the protesters – they are idiots. If you believe that only an idiot can call them idiots (something that you implied with your mirror example), then there are a lot of idiots in the world, which only supports my point.
You cannot imagine the situation! when somebody arrests in Iran with the help of this technology, the middle-age govermet kill them easily
Vahid – I’m not at all saying that what the Iranian government is doing is defensible in any respect. Just saying that you can’t blame a murder on bullet – you have to blame the person that pulled the trigger. Although I generally hate the idea of bullets and wire-tapping, there’s enough of a reason for governments to need them that they’ll always be in the PSTN, and you really can’t hold Nokia accountable for that.
And pkg – you don’t have to leave your own village (never mind a country) to know that any government that censors the press and media as Iran has done isn’t all good. And yes, the US government has done it’s share of bad stuff, especially with regards to Iran, but that does not excuse the Iranian government for their long standing human rights abuses… and Nokia had nothing to do with that. I’ve been involved in several ITU standards efforts, especially with regards to VoIP, so does that mean that I had a hand in the oppression of free speech in Iran? Seems like a stretch for me.
Dude…I love that you’re an OandA fan…
…”good luck bro…”
Ha ha! Stupid kids! They never learned critical thinking because US schools never get that far.
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The Nokia Siemens monitoring system is being used to silence youthful opposition through torture, imprisonment, and death in Iran. Are you in favor of this?
Nokia Siemens (unlike other phone vendors) profits through this torture, imprisonment, and death.
Protesting against this – and making sure that Nokia and Siemens do not enjoy a free ride in countries with more open communications seems very commendable.
Thanks for the morning laugh!
Your imitation of an obtuse, uninformed student is almost perfect! The “unlike other phone vendors” adds a just a touch of moron that is simply delightful!
Zunguri – many thanks for your insightful comments.
Some questions for you – given that your superior education has created in you a vast omniscience.
Q. If the Nokia ‘lawful’ intercept system is so vital to the network how did the phone system in Iran operate before its installation?
Q: Was the sale contrary to UN embargo?
Q: Are NSN still being paid by the Iranian regime? (Maintenance for example?)
Q: Do NSN actively support the system (or should we say ‘motor car’ or ‘AK47′ to assuage the NSN consciences?)
Q: Which other dictatorships do NSN support with their ‘motor cars’?
Q: Do NSN have additional deals in the pipeline with the Iranian regime?
Q: How much money did NSN make from this deal?
Q: How many people are captured per unit time as a result of the NSN system (presumably this is a marketing benefit for NSN?)
Q: How many people have been killed as a result of the use of the NSN system in Iran?
Q: Can the system be used to route and monitor military communications?
Q: Are NSN employees currently based in Iran to support the system?
Q: Are NSN employees permitted to express opinions contrary to the Iranian regime?
Q: Can the NSN monitoring system be used to detect video traffic (based on the size of messages, for example)?
Q: How do Nokia and Siemens not understand that supporting the Iranian regime with high tech spying equipment, used to capture, to kill, and to torture innocent citizens, is not going to be good for their worldwide image?
Peronsally I believe that the world is repulsed by the Nokia-Siemens Iranian-regime deal and the subsequent pious and sanctimonious position taken by Nokia and Siemens and various shills.
What is your honest opinion of this particular deal?
Is this equivalent to selling cars to bad drivers, guns to law abiding citizens, or is it equivalent to selling innocent people to their deaths?
As I am sure you are aware, Siemens employed death camp slave labor in the Nazi era.
So one reason for supporting Ahmadinejad et al, might be might be a common interest in denying such facts.
No doubt 1940’s Siemens, and their shills, said that Siemens actions were quite ‘lawful’.
In this case ‘Lawful’ = wrong.
>Some questions for you – given that your superior education has created in you a vast omniscience.
Thank you, but it doesn’t take a superior education to learn to think critically.
Q. If the Nokia ‘lawful’ intercept system is so vital to the network how did the phone system in Iran operate before its installation?
Its predecessor also had content filtering capabilities.
Q: Was the sale contrary to UN embargo?
No
Q: Are NSN still being paid by the Iranian regime? (Maintenance for example?)
Irrelevant
Q: Do NSN actively support the system (or should we say ‘motor car’ or ‘AK47′ to assuage the NSN consciences?)
Irrelevant and hyperbole.
Q: Which other dictatorships do NSN support with their ‘motor cars’?
Irrelevant but hopefully all of them.
Q: Do NSN have additional deals in the pipeline with the Iranian regime?
Irrelevant.
Q: How much money did NSN make from this deal?
Irrelevant.
Q: How many people are captured per unit time as a result of the NSN system (presumably this is a marketing benefit for NSN?)
Non sequitur.
Q: How many people have been killed as a result of the use of the NSN system in Iran?
Non sequitur.
Q: Can the system be used to route and monitor military communications?
Any unencrypted military communications put through an international gateway to the cell phone network, of course.
Q: Are NSN employees currently based in Iran to support the system?
Irrelevant.
Q: Are NSN employees permitted to express opinions contrary to the Iranian regime?
Yes. You can find them on many pages including blogs.
Q: Can the NSN monitoring system be used to detect video traffic (based on the size of messages, for example)?
Traffic profiling makes detection of video content relatively simple.
Q: How do Nokia and Siemens not understand that supporting the Iranian regime with high tech spying equipment, used to capture, to kill, and to torture innocent citizens, is not going to be good for their worldwide image?
Non sequitur.
>Peronsally I believe that the world is repulsed by
And I believe that you believe that. That doesn’t make it true.
> What is your honest opinion of this particular deal?
Given the choice between what we have (people running around showing the true with their Nokia mobile phones…until government figure out how to stop them) and the alternative (no mobile phone network in Iran and no ability for Iranian citizens to show the world what happened) I’d choose the former in a heartbeat. If you think you could have something in between (people with mobile phones and a cellular network beyond the control of the government) then you are deluding yourself. In the absence of connectivity to the outside world I have no doubt that Iranian citizens would have still protested but the reaction of the government would have been without any restraint and far more would have been killed.
> Is this equivalent to selling cars to bad drivers, guns to law abiding citizens, or is it equivalent to selling innocent people to their deaths?
Non sequitur. There are some circumstances in which prior restraint is warranted. The sale of communication systems is not one of them. If, for however brief a time, the system allowed the truth to be shown to the world, then it has helped.
> As I am sure you are aware, Siemens employed death camp slave labor in the Nazi era.
>No doubt 1940’s Siemens, and their shills, said that Siemens actions were quite ‘lawful’.
>In this case ‘Lawful’ = wrong.
Non sequitur.
Drawing faulty analogies contributes to muddled thinking. Naive assumptions of conditions that do not exsit is also not thinking critically.
Take the emotion and specific companies out of the argument for the moment. Do you believe that Iran would allow an cell phone network to exist without content filtering? If you answer yes, then we have no common ground for discussion as what you believe and reality are disjoint sets.
If you accept that every mobile phone network has some level of content filtering, of what importance is the brand or maker of the capability? Economic rules apply here; there are many substitute goods.
It’s fine if you want to lobby for the unimpeded, unfiltered flow of information. That’s usually a good thing (except, say, when it aids terrorists or an evil regime.) I would call it tilting at windmills in this case.
Hi Zunguri/Ben:
Handling PR for companies like this is no doubt an interesting business. Here is an example of Ben Roome’s ‘positioning’, describing Frank Dunn’s firing from Nortel as ‘business as usual’:
http://www.businessgreen.com/crn/news/2008888/change-command-nortel
Perhaps business as usual, but Frank Dunn’s business activities were so outrageous that they attracted the attention U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission and, I believe, the ever alert Royal Canadian Mounted Police.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Dunn
Is business as usual for Nokia-Siemens the sale of death, torture, and rape, with a little investor fraud on the side?
Non sequitur. Yet again.
Zunguri – omniscient master learner and thinker that you evidently are – thank you again for your enlightening comments and answers.
I guess that we are in agreement on the following two points:
-The previous network in Iran had monitoring capabilities
-Traffic profiling makes detection of video content relatively simple.
(We can therefore conclude that the benefit of the Nokia technology sold to Iran was to make this existing capture technology immeasurably more efficient – and therefore perfect for mass population control.)
For every other question you generously labeled ‘irrelevant’, ‘non-sequitur’, or (less generously) ‘non sequitur. yet again’: thank you for the thoughtful analysis.
Your comments demonstrate a triumph of pragmatism over principle.
Yup, personally, I stand for the unimpeded, unfiltered flow of information.
I am against book burning, censorship, and imprisonment/torture/killing without trial.
I suspect that you and Nokia would not consider this a pragmatic position.
Further from your comments, I conclude that you consider Nokia not to be in the communication business but rather in the ‘defense’ industry.
In the defense industry providing efficient tools of book burning, censorship, imprisonment/torture/killing might even be considered the lesser of the various evils required to make money.
Of course, the people of Iran will continue to document and record what happens to them and they will use a whole range of communications mechanism to disseminate this information. And of course, they will now do it without the use of Nokia technology.
(’You know you are a dictator when … you are the only one in the room with a Nokia phone’).
Nokia and its shills can point to the false choice between communication (with Nokia) and no communication (without Nokia) – and try to indicate that some censorship is the inevitable cost of this false choice. However, it is (alas for Nokia) only a false choice.
Here is something else for you to label ‘non sequitur’:
Siemens recnetly paid a billion dollar fine in Europe for bribing various international customers.
If Siemens products are so good for its customers – why is it necessary to bribe so many of those purchasers?
Were any bribes paid, I wonder, in the sale of the ‘lawful’ intercept system to the Islamic Republic of Iran?
>Zunguri – omniscient master learner and thinker that you evidently are – thank you again for your enlightening comments and answers.
Please, please! Just leave your tip in the jar by the big buddah.
> (We can therefore conclude that the benefit of the Nokia technology sold to Iran was to make this existing capture technology immeasurably more efficient – and therefore perfect for mass population control.)
I hope so. Not perfect though. Much better content filtering is available from companies that Iran probably wouldn’t like to admit they deal with.
>For every other question you generously labeled ‘irrelevant’, ‘non-sequitur’, or (less generously) ‘non sequitur. yet again’: thank you for the thoughtful analysis.
It didn’t take much thought. Unrelated topics are unrelated.
>Your comments demonstrate a triumph of pragmatism over principle.
No, pragmatism is recognition of what is. It is up to principle to fight for a superior position.
>Yup, personally, I stand for the unimpeded, unfiltered flow of information.
That’s fine. I, however, know it isn’t going to happen. Governments will not stop trying to control everything they can; it is their nature.
>I am against book burning, censorship, and imprisonment/torture/killing without trial.
Always need a bit of hyperbole for the home crowd.
>I suspect that you and Nokia would not consider this a pragmatic position.
Me, no. Nokia? Irrelevant.
>Further from your comments, I conclude that you consider Nokia not to be in the communication business but rather in the ‘defense’ industry.
No, that you be your thinking. I see Nokia as hardware manufacturer that sells to communication companies; some of which happen to be controlled by evil governments. Do I think they should stop selling? Sure, let me buy some more Huawei and Ericsson first.
>In the defense industry providing efficient tools of book burning, censorship, imprisonment/torture/killing might even be considered the lesser of the various evils required to make money.
No, in general the defense industry concentrates on purer, more direct tools for killing (as well as the detection of threats, yada yada.) All those things you mention are acts of people, not industries, not hardware. Your inability to distinguish between the two appears to be the source of your confusion.
>Of course, the people of Iran will continue to document and record what happens to them and they will use a whole range of communications mechanism to disseminate this information.
Yes, thanks to Nokia, NSN, Sony-Ericsson, Samsung, LG, etc.
>And of course, they will now do it without the use of Nokia technology.
No, the people will continue to choose Nokia handsets in overwhelming numbers. Don’t believe it? Look at the sales numbers. People act in their own self-interest.
>(’You know you are a dictator when … you are the only one in the room with a Nokia phone’).
No, you know you are a dictator when you must force your principles upon everyone else in the room.
>Nokia and its shills can point to the false choice >between communication (with Nokia) and no >communication (without Nokia)
It is the choice, not a false choice. Assertion that fact is false renders your statement…wait for it…non sequitur.
>Here is something else for you to label ‘non sequitur’:
>Siemens recnetly paid a billion dollar fine in Europe for bribing various international customers.
No. That would be irrelevant. Nice try though.
>If Siemens products are so good for its customers – why is it necessary to bribe so many of those purchasers?
Bribery isn’t a necessity, but a tool of expediency in many cultures. To a western taste, if there is sufficient regulation and transparency, it is exposed and prosecuted. You have described a success of the western legal system.
> Were any bribes paid, I wonder, in the sale of the ‘lawful’ intercept system to the Islamic Republic of Iran?
If it is the local custom (and Iranian friends say it is) then the presumption should be yes.
Hi Zunguri,
(ready with the ‘No/Non sequitur/Irrelevant’ generator?).
Am I detecting a evolution in your stance?
We agree that Nokia/Siemens are essentially arms dealers out to make a buck, by upgrading any regime’s ability to police an entire nation’s communications. We’re happy to acknowledge that bribes, illegal in Europe, are likely to have been paid.
We seem to diverge in pondering the question of whether the arms dealer, or trigger puller should bear responsibility when innocent people are maimed, killed and tortured. (Will this be a ‘No, Non sequitur or Irrelevant’ I wonder?)
Your rejoinder might be – yes but we are labeling ‘LG, Ericsson, etc. as arms dealers too. They’re all doing great work enabling communication, and for all such great communication work there is a tiny downside – ‘lawful’ interception. That is where we differ. Users worldwide will steer clear of such attitudes and the smarter companies avoid abetting evil. In this case Nokia should have known better and not have material assisted a blood soaked regime. Having screwed up Nokia should not piously defend its ongoing support of that murderous regime. That Nokia continue to maintain the system is appalling – and indicates shockingly desperate need for short term revenue. Perhaps the Nokia ponzi bubble is a little fragile(?)
Or this may be business as usual in the Nokia community. Consider Nokia’s intimate business partner Nortel, who have lost a exec or two along the way:
http://www.businessgreen.com/crn/news/2008888/change-command-nortel
Nortel are in the process of being acquired by ‘lawful intercept’ providers, Nokia-Siements.
Perhaps ‘business as usual’, Frank Dunn’s business activities attracted the attention U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission and, I believe, the ever alert, Royal Canadian Mounted Police.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Dunn
‘Business as usual’ for Nokia-Siemens appears to be the sale of death, torture, and rape, with a modicum of bribery and investor fraud on the side.
(Any ink left in the ‘No/Non sequitur/Irrelevant’ stamp?).
Here is an interesting article i came across this morning.
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/news/neda-agha-soltan-murder-witness-risk-torture-tehran-prison-20090904
What happened Nokia-shills? Too busy spending the marketing blood dollars from NSN to comment further?
Take a look at the following: http://observers.france24.com/en/content/20090902-support-iran-reform-own-nokia-siemens-mobile-stamp-it-stockholm
Could be a group of Nokia/Epoc/Symbian developers – or Nokia’s unhappy consumers anywhere in the world.
A brave Nokia-Siemens customer (he’s the one with jack boots and baton) and an Iranian woman:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5s4iXeQOkE
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